Looking for a used car, have a budget in the 3-3.5K range.

Need something large enough to transport a family of 4. Minimum size would be Corolla sort of class, prefer midsize, stationwagon or minivan.

Looking for advice on vehicles in the 2003-2005 range that might fit this price range and still be fairly reliable.

Considering models such as:

Camry (not likely in price range)
Taurus
Various Hyundai
Various minivans (Chrysler, GM, Ford, etc.)

Would appreciate any advice y'all can give on, especially, models to avoid.

I know Chrysler has had issues with minivan trannies in the past, but the vast majority of older vans on the road are Chryslers. Should they stay on my list, or be struck?

Thanks for any thoughts.

J

Isn't it incredible? Chrysler has had a bad rap (rightfully so) on their trannies since the late 60's! You'd think in 50 years they'd figure it out...

Hondas and Toyotas are tops in my book. Having dealt with Korean manufacturing (extensively) when I was with Cat, no way I'd buy anything using their steel...

I've owned Plymouth, Dodge, and Honda minivans that were all bought used. The Chrysler products gave only fair service and the Honda (2002) is a far superior vehicle and worth a premium price. My wife has owned 4 Honda Accords (5 speeds bought used) and they were all very reliable and economical. The Honda Civic has also been very reliable according to Consumer Reports.

Toyotas have also been consistently very reliable for many years. Although the quality of the Korean cars has become very good in recent years, the early ones were not so good.

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Don't forget Subaru AWD....
considering your driving in snow all the time
(except for July hehe)

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I doubt I can afford any Subaru's in useful condition.

Also, I've had several close friends who owned Subaru's. Their advice has universally been "Own one only if it's under warranty". Frightful tales of AWD system maintenance issues.

I dunno.

J

I have been quite happy with my two (older) Chrysler mini-vans.

Driving a '94 GMC Safari now and love it, except for MPG.

Just bought a Mercury Tracer. (Ford Escort wagon clone) Really like it too. Almost double MPG, but it won't pull the boat.

Paid under $1200 for the last two, under $1000 for the minis.

I'd say watch for rust, or signs of accident repair. The mechanics can all be taken care of readily. The most popular in your area will mean cheaper replacement parts and a larger pool of used parts.

I've never owned one myself but have never met a dissatisfied Taurus owner. They definitely have a cult-like following...at least in the Midwest. Good luck.

I have to put my two bucks in for Hyundai..We had two Elantras from 2002 and within the last two years sold them and bought two new Santa Fe's..Good bang for the buck...lot of eqipment is standard in these that are options in other makes...Santa Fe's the 4 cylinder have as much HP as the small sixes and way better mileage..VG accelleration as well..Tuscons back seat may be a bit cramped..check them out...Have had zero problems with any of them back to the 2002's other than brakes, tires, ..2002's still had the original exhaust..Sonata's would deserve a look see too

Thanks, folks, great input.

I'll letcha know what I can scare up over the next couple weeks. I've basically got until end of August to wrap this up.

J

Hmm.... Wifey just found an 04 caravan with 100,000miles (160Kkm), fresh inspection, various recent repairs (brakes, shocks and the like) for $3K.... I think we'll have a look at it.

It's a strange thing to find onesself looking at minivans without derision...

J

I think you'll love the utility of a van. Storage and access is great, and there always seems to be room for "one more thing".

And that's important to me.... My wife has been throwing adds for Civics and Focii at me for days, but I keep explaining that with 4 folks who like to do things, this will be inadequate and regretted.

I fly RC planes, need 50" of clear trunk width... Also like to be able to take my telescope on occasion.

With a van, I can forsee car camping and being able to take a plane or telescope, destination depending....

Just hope such a beast can be reliable for us. Time will tell.

I'll be having whatever we look at checked by a mechanic I trust.

J

As I said earlier, I love(ed) my vans. Here in Michigan the front wheel drive proved valuable, and probably more reliable than 4WD. I had no major mechanical problems with all three of mine, with the exception of a bad intake water leak on the GMC.

I think the newer models are more "car" like, and it seems I see less and less regular sedans on the roads. Since all the downsizing, even four doors are cramped for interior space.

I also found myself removing, and finally discarding the third seat. (more room for large, rowdy dawgs.)

That's the first thing I did with the 2 Chrysler company vans I've owned. The Odyssey third seat folds down completely and I removed one of the second row seats to provide very good access through one of the side doors for loading, etc.

Just went through car shopping with Daughter...

DO Google Kelley Blue Book for ideas on pricing and reliability and customer reviews (I love reviews)

I love Msn Auto Look towards the "mid left" and click "research cars".

Feel lucky you have time to shop. Daughter and I had one day, but she has one of those fancy phones to look those sites up while at the car places

(Focii? Like Focus? Mine is a hatchback with fold down back seats and has lots of room! It is "narrow", though)

Liz

yup, focus. We've got a Camry now and wouldn't like to get much smaller....

Otherwise, thanks for the info on MSN cars... I'll have a look!

J

Well, spent much of Friday and Tuesday test driving and hunting for cars in my range.

Tried a couple vans, but they either possessed scary mileages or were in poor condition in this price range. Rotted rockers and random weird (Cryslerish) failures... Windows that didn't close properly, etc.

Eventually, we began finding a fair selection of Subaru's, and test drove an Outback and a Forrester. Finally settled on an '02 Outback with 260Kkm on the clock, for $3K. Picking it up after work today.

Lost plenty of sleep last night second guessing myself... Hopefully this is a car we can get 2-3 years from.

J

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.......... .......

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I hate car shopping. Rather get a root canal and colonoscopy at same time...

So wife's friend mentioned that her gold-digger to be is playing the divorced parental thing and managed to get her father to buy her a car...a used car...a 2006 Acura and I was gagging at the price a 2006 Acura can bring...16K???

and I looked and yes, they can bring that kind of money...

isnt an Acura an overbloated/overpriced Honda on steroids?

like a Lexus is an overbloated/overpriced Toyota on steroids?

Or am I wrong...?

Nope, y'ain't wrong. It's easy to spend alot of cash on a very used car. Few lots here show any cars under 5K, which makes it all the more fun.

That said, the last Acura I was in was a very nice vehicle... But that's a hell of a premium....

J

Ain't it always the way....

Nothing ever shows up on test drives, does it? Took the Subi for a couple of 1/2 hour+ test drives, and noted no issues with performance.

Now I'm noticing an occasional mid-throttle misfire/chug, typically when in the 2500rpm range. I guess the obvious suspect is plugs/wires/coils. Suspect I'll be applying a water spray test this weekend.

Anything else I should worry about?

J

Neighbor had a 2000 Subaru. Kept going through head gaskets. Four or five, all repaired by the loacl dealer. One of them required a block replacement because a head bolt broke. Replacement engine (new) failed a gasket too. They dumped it at about 150k. Udder 'n this one, I think they're pretty decent cars. All I know...

Yup, aware of the head gasket problems on some. Not currently an issue with this one, I think...

J

OK, here's where I am so far. No solution found.

Picked up an OBDII reader at Canadian Tire (luckily, on sale, $60). Scanned, no codes, none pending.

Pulled each end of each plug wire. No oil leaking from valve cover into plug holes on any cylinder. No signs of tracking or other fault noted. No corrosion. Water spray test didn't produce any noted misfires or visible arcing (performed at twilight). Plugs and wires were done about 100,000km ago, so I'm considering replacing them regardless.

When the gas is burnt down to about half tank, I plan to add Seafoam. Other than that, I guess I'll wait till it throws a code, eh?

Any ideas? Bill? LOL!

J

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4 0r 6 cyl?

and was it a private sale, or do you have a warrantee?


"occasional mid-throttle misfire/chug"......

Does it seem as though it's not firing for a split second,
or explain a little further.

And do you notice the same condition if it's at RPM in neutral?

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small used car lot, no warranty.

4 cyl.

Generally occurs during a gentle to moderate hill climb when a little throttle is eased in for climb. Hesitation is felt, usually at about 2500rpm, and occasionally the tach can be seen to twitch slightly a time or two. Usually recovers quickly with a bit more throttle, often accompanied by further downshift. Once or twice, has manifested as a distinct misfire.

Haven't been able to reproduce it reliably otherwise. No miss noted in neutral. Seems to require some load.

At this point, I'm suspecting its either a miss generated by plug/wire/coil somewhere, though I've not been able to confirm that, or perhaps a sensor that will eventually code for me. Have an OBDII reader, so I'll keep scanning regularly. I may also approach the dealer, owned by local mechanic outfit, about some diagnostics, at least, as a good will gesture. Not gonna hold my breath there....

J

sounds a bit like the probs we were having in the late 80's with oldsmobile OD trannies w/lockup torque convertors..
we chased all the "misses" but couldn't pin anything down..
problem occurred at aboot 35-37 mph on slight uphill grades at at light throttle..
figured out it was the t-convertor OD solenoid giving bad signals..
they were going in/out of the "lockup mode" so quickly that it felt like an engine miss..

I hope that's not your case..

kick

Geeze, I hope it's not something like that.

I can't reproduce it at whim. This morning's drive in, about 15 miles, mostly at 45mph... Didn't happen till near end of drive, while on in-town road, doing about 25mph over a little hump-back. It unlocked the TC, downshifted (visible, small Rpm rise), hesitated, rpm's varied briefly, then it picked up and went, possibly with another downshift, but hard to say.

In general driving, the TC locks and unlocks predictably and seemingly solidly. Shifts seem normal, quick and smooth.

J

Wonder if any tranny maint has been done to it..could it possibly be a dirty tranny filter and require a tranny fluid change..would that also cause this odd shift point???

Kinda funny, our Tracer "searches" for a gear at about 30mph.

BTW, we got 30.3 MPG on the highway at 70mph. Not bad for a '94, huh?

It seems to shift at the appropriate point, but the engine seems to fall short on powering it, that's the impression I get. But with trannys and engines being so closely related, it's hard to tell.

Tranny fluid is at an appropriate level and seems clean.

J

Ha, what you describe there (not a 'misfire') is indicative of
many systems..... You're traveling slow, with a little load,
and the trans controls are at a point of being 'between' gears.

The combination of RPM and load is sensed, and the controls
are saying "up a gear, no wait, don't", then small signals
from throttle position say "down a gear" and this very small
difference, when actually shifts, puts the trans in a position
where it doesn't know if it should go up or down a gear,
and a 'clunk-hesitation-misfire' appearance is evident
to the driver.

Slow speed shifting when you're right on the edge
of 'up or down' is tricky and causes weird shifts.

Let's see what happens there tomorrow.

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"Let's see what happens there tomorrow." what do you mean by this, Bill?

Are you suggesting I should "wait'n'see"?

I'm planning to go speak with the folks who sold this to me 6 days ago at lunch today. I don't know if that will bear any fruit, but I feel I should try.

J

You apparently travel this same section every day,
I just wanted to see if you get the same result in the
same area.

But, go have your chat......

.

Yeah, we've got a handfull of significant climbs on the way to and from work each day. We've made the trip about 7 times in the last 6 days.

It isn't completely consistant on when it does its weirdness. I've done several drives with no weirdness. It did it this morning on only the last hill, and was very subtle.

Any guidance on how worried I should be? I know info is thin right now.

Any suggestions on how I might approach this conversation with the dealer?

I've only ever bought 2 used cars in my life. I've got noone near from whom to seak advice.

J

Well, I'm back.

Went to the dealer, he asked that I take it over to their affiliated mechanic shop. Tells me "whatever it is, we'll get it fixed".

Drove over to the shop, and their mechanic, a gentleman in his mid-late 50's who is definately experienced had a listen to me, and a look at the car. He checked sparkplugs (all good looking NGK platinum units, quite white insulators). I was unable at the time to reproduce the problem in a brief drive.

At the shop, after he checked codes (and like me found nothing), he asked me to try an interesting test. Started the car, put it in gear, and with brake held, briefly held RPMs up to 2200. A ping was noted.

He suggested injector cleaning, and now with the gas at about half a tank, I'll add seafoam tonight, and we'll see if that gets any change.

And the beat goes on.

J

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So, for now, that's two "wait and sees"!?

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Yes. It would seem.

However, I am leaning strongly towards believing the diagnosis as being injector related. Goofyness has (in retrospect) always been accompanied by "pinging". I genuinely do not believe at this time that this is actually anything but an engine issue.

The car has seemed to improve since adding Seafoam. I ain't closing the case yet, but I'm feeling more confident.

I'll keep you in-the-loop,

J

I own an Olds with that transmission. Yes, it did feel like it was missing. Rebuilt the transmission a couple of years ago, and the new lock-up torque converter and solenoid doesent do this at all anymore.

"However, I am leaning strongly towards believing the diagnosis as being injector related"......

GM has a very good injector cleaner, aint cheap but its good.
Get it from the dealer. Follow instructions on can. A friend has used it twice (2 different cars) w/very good results. He also uses it as maintenance once a year or so. I've never had a need to try it, but I trust his word.

HTH..good luck...notnew.....

I've got a bottle of Seafoam added to just over 1/2 tank right now. Should that not do the trick, I'll perhaps try what you're suggesting.

J

I use SeaFoam for over winter storage of my old car, truck, rider mower. I have never used in FI engines. If SeaFoam works for you, I've learned something new. The GM injector cleaner, my friend has used it and did save him semi mega $'s for injector r&r. I thought it might help you as well. I do not recall the cost of the GM stuff, its been a few years back.

Good luck...notnew...

After 2 days with the Sea-foam in, the car is markedly improved. I'm not calling it solved yet, but it may be.

Seafoam is labelled for injector cleaning. It is also a fuel stabilizer.

I believe this car may well have been at the lot for some time (more than a month, with little use). I suspect that may be related.

I really appreciate the suggestions, guys, even the ones that horrify a bit!

J

True that, tha gas in the tank could have been MONTHS old,
and you know what that gets us....

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jas..
I saw your questions on a subaru forum
hope it's clearing itself out..
dealing with an "older" used car can be very frustrating..

I saw this on craigslist today and thought of you
(read levity here)

*Subaru 2.5 single and dual cam engines wanted - $1
Date: 2012-07-14, 1:18PM MDT
Reply to: jts6x-3139415848@sale.craigslist.org Interested in purchasing Subaru 2.5 liter dual and single cam engines, long block or short block.
Cylinder heads for both style engines also wanted. Running or not when removed is ok.

We are also interested in purchasing Subaru Outbacks and Foresters with bad engines, transmissions or head gaskets.
If you have one sitting around, please contact me and maybe we can make a deal.*

kick

Recently cleaned my injectors and intake throttle body (07 Tacoma) by removing vacuum booster hose from the power brake and inserted that end in the can of Seafoam until it drew down about 1/3 to 1/2 the contents. (Don't insert it into the liquid) That will stall the engine. You can insert it into the liquid when you have drawn enough out.

Or turn the engine off and let it sit for 5-10 minutes. That may do a better cleaning than the Seafoam mixed in the gas. Just a thought.

A lot of smoke when you restart the engine, so consider that.

While I admit that this does a good job of cleaning the
intake, valves, etc., you're actually not cleaning the injectors
since the brake hose enters the manifold, and no seafoam
flows through the injectors....

In the tank is the only way to treat 'em....

.

Makes sense, I by-passed the injectors. My intention was to clean the manifold which the Toyota people claimed needed cleaning.

Well, still suffering from a miss, and it's definately a miss. Making an appt. with the local Subaru gurus this week... *sigh*.

J

Any record of the timing belt having been changed? I believe Subaru suggests changing at 100,000 miles.

Yes, have the receipt for the TB change, which was indeed done at 100,000 miles (160kkm). Local dealer did it.

Thanks for the thought!

J

If you'll forgive one more SWAG: I believe all modern engines have controls to detect and prevent "pinging" (pre-ignition). I think the control method is to retard timing. You mention that some pinging seems to be associated with the problem. If the engine has a significant buildup of carbon in the heads, and on loading (hill climb) it occasionally begins pinging, the engine controls will compensate resulting in some power loss. As I said, a SWAG.

Update:

Stopped into the dealer from whom I purchased the car today... Miss has worsened in the last few days, but still no clues (plugs look fine (all platinum or irridium NGK's, white insulators, no trouble signs, no CEL, nothin).

Appt. with Subaru dealer tomorrow for diag.

Dealership agreed with bringing it to Subi dealership, and asked that I get just the diagnosis from them, and bring the car back to them so that their mech (who lacks engine analysis equipment) can make the repairs, at their cost. This seems, to me, to be a reasonable arrangement. I hope they are as good as their word.

This has been extremely stressful thus far, and my confidence is somewhat shaken.

J

Hope they nail it for you, but if they don't, try a tankful of premium gasoline.

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Stressful, yes, but at least they're goin the extra
mile to take care of.....??

Odd that a misfire doesn't show as a CEL.... it should.

.

Agreed. It _should_.

J

Well... No solution yet.

Subaru dealer's opinion is that it's likely a mechanical, rather than fuel or ignition problem, their reasoning being that EFI or ignition problems would result in a CEL.

They believe there is a mechanical problem. They suggest starting with plugs and fuel filter (just because they're probably due), check the timing system, drop exhaust manifolds to check for a "dropped exhaust guide".

Delivered their opinion and the car to the used car guys. They asked that we give'm a couple days to look into it. I said I either need it fixed, or they need to take the car back. He said we'd discuss that with the owner should we come to that.

*sigh*.

I had a chat with my step father who has a long history in auto racing and engine building... And who has one of the US's most reknowned specialty auto mechanics visiting him right now... Perhaps they'll have some thoughts to add....

J

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Hmmm, interesting.

On what did they base their "opinion"?

I know finances sometimes dictate the need for such purchases, " But my dad always used to say, buying a used car is usually buying someone else's problems"

My dad used to say that too, but years ago, when I was getting my kids through college, I bought nothing but used cars. Yes there were some problems, but I got a lot of miles out of those beauties. Most fun was a Merkur XR4TI. For the Winter I picked up an old Plymouth K car. The Merkur was horrible in snow and ice, just left it in the garage and drove the Plymouth in the bad months.

I've been buying cars for almost 60 years (this September) and have never bought a new one. I've bought them with as little as 10,000 miles (3 years old) and with more than 100,000 miles and have saved tens of thousands of dollars in depreciation. Some cars were better than others but I haven't bought a real lemon yet.

50's-60's cars only lasted 10 years or so in the rust belt..
today you can buy a 10 year old car that looks new..
just sayin'

kick

I don't know precisely what they based their opinion on, except from a lack of identifiable more obvious causes....

I'll see what the dealer has to say on Monday, I guess.

My stepfather's friend was leaning towards EGR issues, but that's a shot in the dark too.

Wish the bugger'd code and give a clue.

Used cars are a gamble. Be nice if this comes 'round to paying off. New cars are not an option for us unless wifey becomes reemployed.

J

Heard this evening from the dealer's mech. He checked timing gear and ignition systems again, and "took apart the front end of the engine" (I'll find out tomorrow just what that means), before discovering something.

The gas tank contained significant quantities of water, and the gasoline was described as being "black". He said that after flushing the fuel, replacing the fuel filter, the car seemed to him to be running well. He wanted me to come for a test drive with him, but I was unable to make it before close today (day off!).

So, bright and early tomorrow, I'll go see. I hope this is it. It makes sense, in a way. I suspect the water was there originally, with sludge, when I bought the car. When I began to notice misfiring, one of the steps we took was to add Seafoam as an injector cleaner. Upon next fill, the problem worsened.

I suspect the Seafoam did what it does, and loosened the existing sludge. Next tank fill, it stirred up and entered the fuel system. And so, the problem worsened.

No signs of mechanical problem were found.

More tomorrow.

J

THE SAGA CONTINUES!!!!!

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date Jason. Sounds like they may have gotten it this time.

Stopped in at the mechanic's this morning. He showed me a couple of pop bottles he'd caught from the gas tank. The first one was pretty nasty, a 20oz bottle had about an oz of water in the bottom, dark and lots of sediment. A sample he pulled after most of the gas was drained was MUCH cleaner, with only a couple drops of water.

He changed the fuel filter, and repaired a collapsed vacuum line. He didn't "drop the exhaust to check the valve guides" like Subaru suggested, as he (and other mechanics I spoke with) said that would cause smoke and oil consumption, rather than a miss. That was my thought as well....

We went for a short test drive, him driving... What the hell can I tell with him driving? So after we returned, I went on another, longer one myself, and the car seems much improved. It didn't misbehave on the following drive in here to work, in a torrential downpour.

The coming days will tell the tale.

Fingers crossed,

J

Ha! Funny when you think about how many times bad fuel is the problem with little engines. Big auto engines are assumed to be able to ingest almost anything.

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I'm still lurking....

If they didn't REMOVE the tank to drain,
throw a bottle of isopropyl alcohol in there
to suck up any little remains.....

Hoping that this all works out, and you get another 200,000
out of this car
but I havta say in consideration to the mechanic/dealer, they
certainly went the 'extra mile' for you, and I'd keep this mechanic
at the top of my list for the 'go to' guy.....

.

Yes, isopropyl is the plan for the next 6 tanks or so.

And certainly, this dealer has impressed with the willingness to go this extra mile for me. Certainly they have tried to do right by me. I have been careful to approach them with respect and patience, and without hurling accusations, and I think this is key. Most folks are quite reasonable when we're reasonable to them, I think.

Fingers are crossed!

J

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If there was that much water, I expect you're probably
out of the woods now......

It wouldn't hurt to drop by the mechanic and report,
and include a little 'gratuity for your persistence'.....
He'll remember!

.

One of these should do well

Bill, might well do that should the car run well for the next week.

J

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Well, I suggested the Soob, and I can't have these things
making me look bad....

Been 3 days now.....???

.

THANKS ALOT!!!!!!!!

Now I've got that "Holiday Road" song stuck in my head.

Big grin.....notnew....

Problem is not solved. Here's a recap I wrote for a subaru forum:

Hello all!

A month ago, I purchased a used 02 Outback wagon with 160,000 miles on it from a local used vehicle dealer. 2.5L, 4spd auto.

Shortly after buying it, we began to notice occasional hesitation and "misfiring", especially under moderate load climbing hills. Scanned for codes, none, none pending.

Checked the plugs (NGK Platinums, installed about 60K miles ago, new Bosch wires then too) and wires. Did water spray test, no arcing or missing noted during test. Pulled plug wires, both ends look very good, no leaking oil, no tracking, no corrosion.

When gas was at half tank, added a can of Seafoam to the tank to see if that would help. Nope. Still no codes, no CEL.

Next tank was Midgrade to see.... Nope. Problem has worsened over time. Now misfiring heavily on some hillclimbs. Tach is observed to "bounce" 200-300rpm when this happens, generally in the 2000-3000rpm band.

I took the car in to my local Subaru dealer who charged me 100 for no diagnosis. They suggested having the used vehicle dealer mech check timing, service fuel filter, and drop exhaust to check valve guides.

Used vehicle dealer took the car for a weekend for their mech to check out. He checked the timing (all is well, belt 60K miles old), checked plugs'n'wires. He changed fuel filter. He drained the gas tank, finding some water/sludge. He did not check exhaust guides. When I picked the vehicle up, it seemed to be significantly improved, though it still hesitated off-idle when launching on occasion.

We filled up with fresh gas again, adding gas dry to ensure any remaining water was taken care of, drove it that week. On the weekend, we took a camping vacation, about 100m each way. By the return trip, the misfire had returned. Filled up with supreme 3 days ago, continuing to add gas dry.

This week, the problem has worsened again, still no codes with none pending. On 15 mile drive home today, the car must have misfired 500 times.

I'm bringing the car back to the dealer again tomorrow. Except for having sold me this car, I cannot fault them, they have tried, but seem as stumped as I am. Any thoughts? We've put about 1500 miles on the car over the last month, and its generated NO codes, with NONE pending. HOW is this possible?

Thanks for looking.

J

You also stated.....




Using the term "misfire" is getting me off the track here
So,.... I still don't see a "Misfire", since it would cause a code...

One question = IMMEDIATELY upon starting in the AM,
does it run decently for about 2 - 4 minutes??
In other words, before the emissions get the time to go into
'closed loop'...????


What I'm getting at here, is that running cold will be using
more fuel and after coming up to temperature, that excess
fuel is now causing stumbling, and the condition you describe
as ...."adding more throttle...nothing...then Vroom..."

At that point, the throttle is open enough to admit sufficient
air to overcome stumbling from rich mixture.

If all this makes sense,

Replace the front O2 sensor.......




and if it doesn't look like either has been replaced
for the life of the car, replace both!


The 02 sensor causing rich mixture will give you
that 'sensation', and NOT cause a CEL


my .02$ from here

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..............

Upon starting cold, it will generally stumble/lope at idle. I start it, RPM's flare into the 1400rpm range, and slowly drift down over 5-10 seconds, towards maybe 11-1200. On occasion (say 1 in 3 starts), it will stumble hard, dropping to 800 or so, before recovering back to the normal fast/cold idle.

It will often stumble climbing the hill from my driveway... However, the problem does seem to worsen as I go, being worst about 5 minutes from home. It bucked violently today at the 5km mark.

I do know that the front O2 sensor was replaced within the last 100,000km. I don't recall the actual mileage at the time.

dunno.

J

The fact that the car ran better (not perfect, but markedly improved) after the last visit to the mech puzzles me some.

I wonder if it's simply down to the battery having been unhooked for some time, and the computer then slowly learning, over the next tank of gas, how to do it "wrong" again.

J

If the dealer would be willing to give you the name and contact information for the previous owner, he might be able to provide some answers.

I have the name of the prev. owner, and the dealer (just met with the dealership owner) invited me to contact him. He swears up and down that the car had no pre-existing issues... But I'll call tonite or tomorrow to see.

I'm gonna unplug the battery tonight to see if it runs well for a time after, as well. This because after getting it back from the mech two weeks ago, the car behaved well for a time before going back to old ways.... Thought being that if an O2 sensor (for instance) is giving "valid but wrong" values, the computer may be trying to tune towards an incorrect target. It costs nothing to try.

Dealer is still insisting it must be fuel related. I'm not so certain. I've had 2 tanks thru since last service, with the problem continuing. I've been adding isopropanol to deal with any remaining water.

Anyhoo, back to "wait'n'see" mode, with some experimentation....

J

When someone mentioned possible o2 sensor and I believe you said this one had 100,000kms on it..dont you think that given the mileage it may be long in the tooth and suspect???? I also beleive you said the plugs had close to 100K on them..I know the manufacturer says that is within parameters, but maybe possible that there is a bag plug in there

This may be completely off base but could back pressure cause the kind of miss you're describing? I've heard of similar cases involving a broken baffle within the muffler that would temporarily move or shift as a result of throttle position / vehicle orientation / load and cause enough back pressure to force the engine to hesitate. Maybe this is a condition that would result in a code but, if not, it could be a piece of the puzzle.

I did unplug the battery over the weekend, and while the car doesn't work perfectly this morning (didn't drive anywhere all weekend!), it is markedly improved. I do believe that the O2 sensor will be at least a part of the equation. This morning's drive didn't feature any "bucking" or "missing like symptoms", but rather hesitation and lagginess (failing to respond to throttle), followed by a burst of power. Other times, it worked politely.

Shooter, I've had a baffle loose in a muffler before ('86 Celica GT, my first car!), it causes really.... Interesting.... Symptoms, but it's not the cause here. Sadly.

Will advise.

J

Jason.

Aint totally up to speed w/your fun(grin), but did they clean the entire tank and/or fuel system? If they found crud in the tank, unless they removed, cleaned, reinstalled, I suspect gas.
Im not saying it aint something else, but I've dealt w/stuff in the tank, and sometimes its not fun to get clean.

HTH..good luck...notnew....

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How's your gas mileage.....

Not realyy a good question, since you don't have
a lot of history.

Is the exhaust pipe loaded with soot?

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Gas mileage is decent, about 600km to the tank, similar to what my Camry has gotten the last many years.

Tailpipe is normal, no excess carbon.

My impression is that the engine tends towards lean, not rich.

J

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It's time for a .... WHASSUP????

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Indeed it is!

Car went in to Subaru yesterday, they checked all that they wanted to check and then hooked up to diagnostic machine.

Front O2 sensor reading incorrectly. Replaced. Car drives normally. Has clean bill of health now.

Jason sleeps better.

Thanks for your input, guys!

J

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....I'll be watching

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