I've had some previous threads about "hidden deck fastening systems". Wanting to deliver the BEST install possible to my customers, and having had a few bad experiences with hidden fastener systems that use a clip and/or groove on the decking edge, I wanted as close to face screwing as possible yet no visible fastener. Dora reminded me of the Camo system, and I was also aware of the Kreg system.

In prep for a deck job next week, western red cedar, with hidden fasteners, I figured I better do my homework and try out the two top candidates for essentially face screwed fastening. So earlier today I bought both the Kreg and Camo systems, including a supply of their screws, and tried them out on some scrap decking I had. Goal was to see how they performed both with the decking perpendicular to the joist, as well as in a 45 degree installation.

The Camo Marksman Pro system is about $50, includes the jig, a bit and a few screws. This jig clamps onto the decking, freeing up both hands to load the jig (both sides if desired) and run the screws in. The screws self-release from the driver at the correct depth. The jig has a built-in stop which spaces the decking 3/16" from the previous board. Installs on a 45 degree joist are accomplished by offsetting the jig such that the guide is on the "high side" of the joist edge. This allows the screw to still come down at 90 degrees to the decking, but into the joist at an angle.



The Kreg runs about $100 and includes a jig, some decking spacers, both a pilot hole bit and a driver bit, and a bag of screws. This jig requires one hand to hold it in place, but has a similar approach to providing a guide for the screws. Only one side at a time with this one, plus the depth is set via an adjustable collar that gets set-screwed onto the driver bit. Kreg includes both 1/4" and 5/16" spacers, which may be placed between the two deck boards. (I can see these spacers falling "down below" at just the wrong time...) Angled decking is fastened just like the Camo. The Kreg has two additional angled pilots, used for butt joint fastening - a nice feature if you join decking on a single joist.



As I said, both provide a guide for the proprietary deck screw, the intent being that the screw comes in from the decking edge, on an angle, and goes directly into the joist. Nice feature with this is screws are easily removable if needed, are essentially hidden from view, yet still provide the holding power of face screwing. The Camo screws have what looks like a clipped point which does a decent job of augering a pilot hole. Then there's a reverse thread at the top of the screw which is supposed to further pull the decking down tight against the joist. The Kreg uses pretty much a conventional thread design.



First, I fastened the 5/4" deck board to a pair of 2x4s using the Camo jig and screws. You can see the results... Nice sanitary install.



Second, I fastened another 5/4" board, spacing it with the Kreg 1/4" spacers. Splitting wood and hard to control depth was the result, and even with the spacer, the drill bit hit the adjoining board, damaging it as shown in the second photo below. I suspect there's an elevation problem here that I haven't figured out yet...





I figure I am missing something with the Kreg system, as these guys are normally pretty decent on their product design. (For example, they say to pre-drill the holes with an included bit, but no way I've got the time for that and I shouldn't need to on western red cedar anyway!) But at twice the price, screw availability issues (they're hard to find for me), a tendency to split the wood, and the driver bit damaging the previously installed deck board...

Edited add: In my haste to try these two systems out, I neglected to install little rubber "feet" on the bottom of the Kreg jig. Installation of the feet will further elevate the jig, and this coupled with pre-drilling the holes SHOULD eliminate both the adjoining board damage, as well as the splitting problems described above. I may have to "re-test" the Kreg...

Kreg install video.

CC-
Thanks for the 'hands on' comparo, Where did you get the Camo tool? The Camo screw looks similar to a trim head screw, do you think it's sufficient to hold the boards on place?

I'm still contemplating my deck surface replacement. Will the Camo system work on WRC 2x6's?

Since you're very experienced with WRC, do you treat the cut edges with anything prior to installation? Do you see any problems with ends rotting out due to a buildup of 'crud' at the end grain? Butt joints are located over joists, so it would seem to be a trouble point.

Thanks, Bob.

Great feed back Al. I remember noting that the Camo screws (in your other post) resembled the Split Stop screws I've used. They gave me a nice clean hole at the head when driven just like you show in your image.

Split Stop screw. That second set of threads near the head make a big difference.

Got the Camo tooling at Menards and the Kreg at Home Depot. I think the Camo usually sells for about $50, but they are "red tagged" at $30 (!) at my local Menards right now for some reason.

Screw head diameters are a concern to me on both designs. I don't know enough about fasteners to have this be a non-issue to me, so I'm trusting that both companies know what they're doing. I agree with Able on the SplitStop screws however. They appear to be superior in their holding power.

As I understand it, the Camo system will work on 2x decking. You obviously need longer screws, which are available. I'm not sure if the Kreg will work with 2x stock.

I can't stand butt joints that land directly on top of a joist. It forces the installer to drive the screws in at an angle close to the end of the board, greatly reducing the wood's ability to maintain it's integrity. WRC (and just about any other material) will prematurely rot, "tear out" or fail in this area as a result.

Instead, I make my guys land all joints on doubled up joists, the two of which are separated by about 1" or 1.5" space. Each deck board end is then fastened to it's own joist, with the board end overhanging into that space a fraction of an inch.

Note that Kreg "solves" this problem by adding the angled pilots on their jig. On these screws, you come in at an angle providing significantly more holding power and I presume less damage to the decking itself.

I recommend not treating WRC with anything during the life of the decking. Even in the harshest of conditions, the decking will do fine untreated. It weathers to a nice grey patina.

A few years ago, I got into a debate with a few members of a homeowner's association for a condo complex on the north shore of Lake Superior, where their decks (57 of them!) are literally 20' from the water... As part of my support for not treating it, I cited a letter from the head of the WRCA who said "leave it alone".

I DO recommend treating railing systems however, for aesthetic reasons. But once you stain WRC decking, you now have a maintenance issue from that point forward.

Also the second set of threads add to the holding power of the shank portion that's in the deck board.

Note to all: See "Edited add" comments in original post.

Thanks for helping me make that decision. Very useful.

You bet.

Since that original comparison/thread, we've built a number of decks using the Camo system. LOVE IT!