Daniel:

Even today, there are Orthodox Jews that turn to the Torah for answers on life's most important decisions. For example, a woman who wanted to be a cantor in a Jewish temple was told by her rabbi that this wasn't appropriate for a woman. Her job, according to the Torah was to look after her husband and take care of her children, and leave the study and reading of the Torah to the men.

I forget the guy's name (Jeffs) who heads a mormon splinter cult in Texas that still practice polygamy. The government leaves them alone on the polygamy charge because it's part of their religion, but presses charges against them if they force children into marriage (which they do), in the name of religion.

Even today, mormons won't have blood transfusions because it's against their religion. Many have died as a result. When mormon parents refuse blood transfusions for their children, then the courts step in on the basis that it's the court's responsibility to protect the children from their parents (as they do in the case of abusive or alcoholic parents).

Muslims that follow the teaching of the Koran to rid Muslim land from the infidel are branded "terrorists" if they resort to violent means to do that.

Millions of people live their lives according to a 2000+ year old Bible.

What I'm saying is that if the Holy Bible tells us that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God, then those among us who profess to follow the teaching of the Bible have an obligation to speak out against homosexuality. In my view, that's different than a pack of skin heads that go out and beat up homosexuals for entertainment. That is, being subordinate to a higher power is not a personal choice or decision the way true bigotry and prejudice are.

Dora says that stating that Bob is a bigot and hypocrite is a FACT and not an opinion, she's obviously got a different understanding than I do. To me, it's not a simple question. It seems to me that one of the foundations of American democracy is the right to practice the religion of one's choice, even if that means breaking the law and having multiple wives, refusing necessary medical treatment like a blood transfusion, or, speaking out against homosexuality.

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If one is following the instruction of a higher power, and that higher power teaches prejudice, does that make the individual guilty of prejudice? In my view, bigotry and prejudice are both personal acts. We ourselves behave with bigotry and prejudice against people whom we personally dislike. I don't think you can say that a right wing Catholic that follows the teaching of the Bible in denouncing homosexuality is guilty of bigotry or prejudice.

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If a person is exhibiting prejudice, one can surmise that he is prejudiced, no matter where he learned it. That might be sufficient clue to disregard the higher power, whichever imaginary friend that is, or whoever the phony is that is teaching prejudice.

Aaah, well it seems my bit of tongue & cheek message has slipped past the mark and landed squarly were I'd of expected. Of course having empathy for people doesn't come natural for most.
>>> Backhanded comments? Not sure what your real message is here.

I view any discrimination as intolerable whether it be against gays, people of color or the elderly.
>>> Agree. Just as discrimination against those that don't believe homosexuality is "OK" should be intolerable.

Doesn't matter, wrong is wrong and stating facts is not a personal attack. Telling Bob Fleming he's a bigot and a hypocrit isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
>>> Can't agree or disagree if Bob is a bigot. I don't personally know him. However, I can say that his post at the beginning of this thread doesn't smack of an intolerance for differing views, which I believe is the definition for being a bigot.

Believe me, I've kept my opinions outta this discussion. If some wanna view this as a personal attack, well, guess that depends on your perspective. I veiw it as making the world a better place.
>>> Well, sure looks to me like those that are attacking Bob (based on this thread) are the ones exhibiting the intolerance, hypocrisy and bigotry.

There are many among us, including me, that take the judgments of pre-scientific desert dwellers with great examination, a 'grain of salt'.

It is an ancient political tactic (and I mean even pre-biblical) to illustrate the differences between tribes by pointing out different practices. So people who eat meat of cloven hoof, and people who practice homosexuality, like many Greeks and Romans are chastised by Hebraic writers, to show the people what makes them morally superior. It is somewhat apparent to people that the Hebrews disliked being colonized by Romans to have them replace Yahweh with the emperor, and expressed that to the point of having their temple reduced to a wall.

Most every New Yorker is familiar with the guilt produced in today's Jewish families - it is often a joke. It is part of tradition handed down over millenia to 'correct' children. From tension guilt derives neurosis and insanity.

I am reducing all that to a tradition of smearing people that aren't the same to produce 'togetherness.' People who don't hold to that method just don't bother to use guilt as a political lever. If you examine the strengths and weaknesses of ancient writing, there is less tendency to be trapped by it.

No, it's not like he goes out on Saturday nights and beats up fags for sport - it's more like people reach for straws to control people for the political tactic of showing moral superiority, picking something that is 'natural', built into human emotion, to gain an influence and even absolving people of their own feelings with water and candles for a living.

I've never had the interest in physical love for another man, so when people dressed in funny clothes mention the tendency, it has no meaning for me. It probably has meaning for many people. When I was five years old and went to a Gospel Hall, the man ranting against all the sins that I did made me look at him as a nut, and it's been the same since.

When Clinton was asked if he had sex with that person, his best answer of 'It's none of your business.' would have killed the problem right then and there, as the private acts would have had no impact on being Commander-in-Chief telling a polite fib because he wouldn't have answered.

People are so habituated not to think that they don't see that books that promote royalty and control over peoples emotions and thoughts are a clear and ever-present danger to a democracy. Take the good from the Bible and leave the control-freaks to their rantings.

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From tension guilt derives neurosis and insanity.

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OH MAN! Ain't that the truth!!!!

It's all in the delivery:
A parent sits down with a son and says
"A man shouldn't love another man because
er, ah, well..."
OR
"I don't want you to go nuts, son, but
when a man loves a man, he is insane,
and he has to carry around a future
of burning in fire forever, and everybody
will hate him, and guys in plaid shirts
and overalls will beat you up, and you have
to sneak around if you go in a church."

Which mindset would you like to produce?
Well,... you can leave that up to some guy
in a dress on weekends.

Delivery AND "The Price"

"You'll rot in Hell if you _____!"

I have read all of your comments. And to this day I will never understand why anybody would care what happens between to consenting adults behind close doors.

If you had a terminal illness and a gay person, black person, or atheis person had the cure. Would you not accept it because of what these people are or believe in..

If you needed a transplant to live would you not accept it from one of these people?

Can anyone here truly say, I would rather die then accept a kidney from a gay person?

Is the love between 2 men or women any different then the love between a husband and a wife?

Love is love.

And to all who say that "GOD" say's it is wrong. I ask but one question....Who created this type of person?


We are not talking about child abusers, rapist, murderer's. We are talking about people who love another human being just like most of us do. And what happens between those 2 people is no one's business but their own... If "GOD" feels that it is wrong, just like all other sin's. Then he will have his say on judgement day.....


But to say that you hate all gay's or blacks or latino's or any other group of people, is insane. Every group is made up of individuals. And until you can meet and speak to everyone of them in that group. And get to know each everyone of them. How can you say that you hate the whole group?

When everyone in this world can honestly say that I will NOT accept anything or any help from a certain group of people. Even if it means my death or my childs death...

Well until you say that and live by it, then you are just a hypocrite......

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I have read all of your comments.

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OH????

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But to say that you hate all gay's or blacks or latino's or any other group of people,

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Where did Bob say this?