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#311519 - 09/21/06 02:10 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: MTeator]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 4460
Loc: Rochester,NY
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Okay, you confused me again!  If you posted information that tells everybody to use 5W30, why are you going to use 10W30?!!!! I can't remember the last vehicle I had that recommended 10W30 (back in the 80's?). Like I said, now they all recommend 5W20. Back in the days when I was a pup, everybody used 10W40 in the Winter, which now seems to be counter intuitive. It's cold here and that stuff had to have been like mud in the Winter.  Engine piston rings and oil passages haven't changed over time, technology and lubrication as a science has. My guess, as a technoid and reliability maintenance kind of guy tells me to go with the latest and greatest. There's a guy on another site I go to who is a geartrain expert and who does oil analysis as part of his job. He seems to be content with 5W20 and doesn't vary from it by season. He also doesn't spend the big bucks for synthetics.
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#311520 - 09/21/06 02:31 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: Nestor_Kelebay]
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Bigfoot
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 34360
Loc: The Indianhead's Left Nostril....
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Quote:
If they did, there wouldn't be so many stores selling Fram oil filters and synthetic engine oil. I probably agree with Cabin Connection that you rarely ever come close to filling an oil filter with dirt, but in my books, if Fram is making filters that they know are inferior to the competition (albeit sufficient to our needs), buying their filters is helping to support them in that practice. I think they should all make smaller filtration capacity filters and charge less for them.
Just an FYI... Back in my Cat daze (sic), when I personally cut open about 100 filters, there were one or two brands that really fudged things... Their cans were say 8" long, but the guts of the filter was only 4" with the balance being empty space... The guts were from another (shorter) filter, simply put in the longer can because that's what the market was used to seeing...
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#311521 - 09/21/06 02:38 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: kodak_jack]
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"I am the Ipeman"
Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 7622
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kodak, read what I posted again. It said if the "preferred oil" in the manual is 5W-30, then to use 5W-30. My manual says (2000 Dodge Dakota) the PREFERRED OIL is 10W-30. So that's what I use. Someone tell me why I should NOT go with what the engineers who designed my vehicle explicitly specify in the manual. My whole point is that Davids made a blanket statement that 5W-30 is always better than 10W-30, and I want some kind of backing to that. The advice that *I* can find, including calling the dealer, is that you should use what the manual specifies...period. And mine says 10W-30. I don't change the oil myself in my other vehicle, it's very specific with it's requirements so it's not worth discussing it... it gets synthetic and for what I consider good reasons 
_________________________
so long and thanks for all the fish.
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#311522 - 09/21/06 03:31 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: kodak_jack]
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Handyman
Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 615
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Quote:
Back in the days when I was a pup, everybody used 10W40 in the Winter, which now seems to be counter intuitive. It's cold here and that stuff had to have been like mud in the Winter.
10w40 will not be any thicker than 10w30 in cold temp.
they are both 10w when cold
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#311523 - 09/21/06 04:57 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: Davids]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 4460
Loc: Rochester,NY
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Yah, you're right. I keep getting the two numbers mixed up. I don't know why an oil that is thicker after warming up would be better in the Winter, but that's what people used to do.
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#311524 - 09/21/06 05:12 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: MTeator]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 4460
Loc: Rochester,NY
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Okay, I guess I see your point, but that also implies that the engine isn't as tight(?) as other engines if it wants thicker oil when cold than other makes. I think Davids' point and that of the manufacturers is that you want that oil flowing as soon as you hit the key. The thinner oils will give you that in cold temperatures, provided it doesn't just blow by the rings. That's where the tolerances of the engine come into play. The gap between the rings and cylinder walls, along with surface finish, determine how effective the lubrication will be. I still haven't heard from the guys who make their living fixing vehicles as to whether the 5W20 oils are causing more wear by supplying less final viscocity. Is the 20 weight enough when recommended in newer engines or should we still be using 5W30?
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#311525 - 09/21/06 06:49 PM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: kodak_jack]
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Handyman
Registered: 01/23/06
Posts: 615
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personally speaking i will always stick with 5W30 regardless of what is recommended.
in my opinion it is the best all around oil for any modern car, regardless of outside temps.
the exception would be if you had a very old V-8 (80's and older), in that case i would use 10W40.
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#311526 - 09/23/06 01:36 AM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: Nestor_Kelebay]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 12207
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Amazingly the temperature was -59C (about -74F) with the windchill factored in.
Wind makes US feel colder, but it won't affect your car's starting. Wind makes us feel colder because we lose heat faster (the same way we would if it were colder outside). But, if you're car's been sitting outside, it's already cold, and therefore won't lose any heat to the wind. Wind will only speed the rate at which a warm car cools down. It won't make a cold car colder.
Quote:
Below -35, most cars cannot reach operating temperature at all. Mine sits at about 1/4 on the temp gauge in such cold.
I'd replace your thermostat. If the engine doesn't reach operating temperature, then neither should the coolant and the thermostat should remain nearly closed. (and that, in turn, should cause the engine to warm up) (I've noticed that the repeated warming up and cooling down of the engine tends to "anneal" (or soften) the closing spring in automotive thermostats so that the water pump pressure will be enough to open them wider than they should be in cold weather. If your car doesn't warm up properly in cold weather, I'd replace the thermostat with a new one. You should notice a big improvement.)
(Although I'm not sure if you'd even need a "cooling system" for your engine with an outdoor air temperature below -35. You might be losing heat to the cold air as fast as your engine can generate it. Still, I had the same problem with a 1973 Plymouth Satellite, and replacing the thermostat helped a lot.)
THANKS TO GLOBAL WARMING (and a BIG THANKS), we haven't seen temperatures colder than -40 deg. F here in quite a while. When I was a kid, -40 was common, and colder than that was common too. For the past 10 years at least, I've noticed the winters have gotten gradually milder so that even -40 is becoming rare, thank GW.
People living in the South don't understand the "joy" that comes over us Canadians in March and April when the winter starts to give way to spring.
Wind makes US feel colder, but it won't affect your car's starting. Wind makes us feel colder because we lose heat faster (the same way we would if it were colder outside). But, if you're car's been sitting outside, it's already cold, and therefore won't lose any heat to the wind. Wind will only speed the rate at which a warm car cools down. It won't make a cold car colder.
Yeah, I know that. I mentioned it as an aside. I knew what the wind chill effect since I was a little kid. Latent heat. The evaporation of water requires heat energy input, input from our own body, removing heat from us. When dry -35C air is blowing past our skin, the heat loss is substantial.
I'd replace your thermostat. If the engine doesn't reach operating temperature, then neither should the coolant and the thermostat should remain nearly closed. (and that, in turn, should cause the engine to warm up)
The problem is exactly as you mentioned later. When -35C air is going into the engine and -35C air going through the radiator and around the engine block. The cooling system is designed to cool the car at 110F or more, considering there are sometimes weeks of temperatures like that in some places, whereas there are only days of temperatures at -40C, it makes sense the cooling system is balanced more for hot weather. After 10-15 minutes of sitting, the block is almost fully cold again. It is impossible for the fuel to supply enough heat to counter-act heat being lost by the temperature. More heat is moving away from the engine than is being provided by the fuel. Several cars with known good thermosdats all experienced the same behavior. When heat loss exceeds heat gain, the thermosdat simply cannot control the engine temperature. All these cars fully warm up at temperatures up to -30 or so, beyond that it takes a stupidly long time to warm up, if it happens at all.
It's the same deal as people telling me to warm up my car when it's -30C outside. Yeah, i'll let it run for a good 10-15 minutes, but if I want it to get warmed up, I will burn a full tank of gas waiting. At idle, there is simply not enough fuel (and resulting heat) to balance the heat being lost. Much colder and it applies all the time. The ONLY things one can do when it is THAT cold out (we tend to have 2 or 3 days below -40 and several days below -35 each winter) is suck it up and realize it is just impossible for engines in Canada to last as long as in California. The whole deal is worse for more modern engines, which are more efficient in getting kinetic energy from the fuel, as opposed to heat.
People who have never experienced temperatures of -45C and a windchill almost into the -60s really are missing out 
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#311527 - 09/23/06 01:40 AM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: MTeator]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 01/04/03
Posts: 12207
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
kodak, read what I posted again. It said if the "preferred oil" in the manual is 5W-30, then to use 5W-30. My manual says (2000 Dodge Dakota) the PREFERRED OIL is 10W-30. So that's what I use. Someone tell me why I should NOT go with what the engineers who designed my vehicle explicitly specify in the manual.
My whole point is that Davids made a blanket statement that 5W-30 is always better than 10W-30, and I want some kind of backing to that. The advice that *I* can find, including calling the dealer, is that you should use what the manual specifies...period. And mine says 10W-30.
I don't change the oil myself in my other vehicle, it's very specific with it's requirements so it's not worth discussing it... it gets synthetic and for what I consider good reasons
Considering there are people whose specific job it is is to measure friction and fluid dynamics of newly designed systems, one should go with the manual. Electrical and mechanical engineering are pulling me equally, I still don't know which to do 
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#311528 - 09/23/06 06:34 AM
Re: motor oil to use in summer and winter
[Re: captain150]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 4460
Loc: Rochester,NY
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For the most part, mechanical engineers are concerned with manufacturing. Since manufacturing is heading to 3rd world countries, I see limited possibilities in that field. Electronics will always be needed in just about every type of product produced here and elsewhere. A better solution is to do both, if you're so inclined. My reliability degree has done nothing for me because all of the big manufacturing giants are moving their production to Mexico and China. Did you ever see the Sam Kinisin skit about sending U-Hauls to desert areas? Instead of sending these people food because they're starving, send them U-Hauls to get the heck out of there! Same applies to areas that experience -45 Degree temps. 
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